Snake bites and Parvo, and other areas, and what we do. It is very common for us to post on both our kennel and personal Facebook sites what we do day to day at he kennel. We are open and honest and just take the readers with us. Often not knowing the outcome of the situation. Snake bites and even scorpion bites are such an area. I realize that while doing this if something goes wrong and a dog or pup dies than we could look like real losers.
We have progressed in what and how we do things at the kennel over the years with practical experience. Often we have to take a educated and calculated risk. We have had both good and very bad experiences with veterinarians. There is however little we do in the veterinarian department where we have not only hands on experience with the vet, but much consolation. Add to the the vast amount of information on the web, then add the many groups and individual people who have had practical experience in what ever you are dealing with.
Parvo and Snake bites are 2 such areas. At one point many years ago we were getting Parvo in our litters. I decided if I could not get it under control then I would no longer breed dogs. The anguish of caring for and then losing a puppy to Parvo was just two much. So I studied every single thing I could find on the subject, and talked to every vet who would listen.
At one point I thought the shot was giving the pups Parvo, in part because I would give a shot and 7 or so days later the pups would come down with Parvo. I believe in the end it was the Parvo vaccine that played a big part, as well as our protocol. We were using Fort Dodge vaccine and waiting until eight weeks old to give the vaccine. Pups were getting Parvo before eight weeks and often after a Parvo shot.
We switched to Vanguard Plus 5 by Zoetis. We order it in 2 to 3 hundred dollar orders to save money on shipping. Next day shipping, packed in extra ice. We give the shots at 5 or 6 weeks, and then again at 7 or 8 weeks, then 3 weeks later for the 3rd shot. After we give the first shot we wait 2 weeks and give the 2nd, and then we wait 3 weeks before the 3rd shot. I take all the shots I'm going to use on the litter and place in ice water before going to give the shots. I want the shots to be good, and heat can kill the vaccine.
Vanguard Plus 5 is highly immunogenic and capable of stimulating active immunity in the presence of maternal antibodies. And that my friend is why we use it. Parvo can not get to the puppy because of the mother's maternal antibodies. But the vaccine can overcome the mother's antibodies. We do two weeks apart for the first 2 shots because I want a shorter window for Parvo. Also I want 2 shots before the puppy goes home with the new owner. I can't depend on the owner being responsible to get the vaccines. There is probably a 100 percent change that when the puppies leaves our place that they are protected from Parvo. The shots after the 1st shots are not boosters, they are insurance against the first shoot not working. In effect you are trying to beat the Parvo virus getting to the pup. Will it be your vaccine, or the Parvo virus that gets to the puppy first? The first one there wins. I want that win to go to the puppy.
Four years and none, not one of our puppies, either here or leaving here have come up with Parvo. So you can see there is little chance that anyone is going to get me to do our Parvo prevention any other way.
Rattlesnake bites: I'm not unfamiliar with rattlesnake bites and German Shorthairs. Close to 45 years ago Jack the solid liver Shorthair of my younth was killed by a rattlesnake. Jack hated rattlesnakes and would do battle with them. And when a dog does battle with a rattlesnake the dog gets a lot of venom. It's life or death for the snake and the snake is going to give the dog all the venom the snake has.
Jack would do battle with the snake, and Jack would go see the horse vet Doctor Mason, Doc would give anti venom and send Jack home. But old Doc Mason, a wise old doctor he was, warned that someday Jack would meet a big one, a big old rattlesnake and the bite would kill Jack. One day there were rattlesnake parts on the porch, and Jack was never found. Went down to the nearby creek and died a lonely death. And that is how the best hunting dog I as well as many others had ever seen met his maker.
I'm not a fan of rattlesnakes, and since we moved to the great snake state of Arizona we are at approx. 25 puppies to grown dogs bitten. One dog who was bitten as a pup lost his eye. The biggest vet bill was 2 grand. Many have been bitten while hunting. A couple were bitten in a California camp. Even saw many in Montana, I did not think rattlesnakes would be there. Hell rattlesnakes and cactus in Montana, might as well been in Az.
The Ca. bite got me thinking. I called the vet thinking to take the dog in for anti venom. The vet said bring him in. I asked how much anti venom was costing. Around 400 to 600, and from one to three veils needed. The vet said they did not have any or use anti venom. They also did not feel it necessary to refer us to a vet that did. The truth was that the vet could do nothing we ourselves could not do. The dog was fine the next day. A very small rattlesnake.
I'm of the firm belief that very small rattlesnakes are of little concern to a large dog. There simply is not enough venom. Also that if more than one dog is bit, than the first dog get's more venom. Also that if the dog does not grab the snake then the snake acting in a defensive manner does not release a lot of venom. Also a bite on the nose allows the head to swell causing less damage. A neck, chest, or leg bite is more dangerous.
So with twenty five dogs bitten, you would think that at least one dog or puppy would die. That's not been the case. I watched Tonya one time while hunting get bit twice by a small sidewinder. Both sets of fang marks could be seen. Her face did swell but there was little effect. Even dogs who are smart and have been trained to avoid rattlesnakes get bit every now and then. Birds and wildlife tend to be under brush, behind logs and in the grass where rattlesnakes are also found. Jack once came back with a nice large set of fang marks on his nose. His face swelled up, but he was hunting the next day. Believe me when your best dog who you love more than most of your friends gets bitten and you don't take him to the vet, you have a lot of faith that anti venom is not needed.
I have heard of dogs bitten that have had anti venom who have still died. I would not think that would be possible. There must have been a very large snake and maybe some battling going on.
We once had 5 puppies that were all about 8 weeks old bitten by one rattlesnake that got into the puppy yard. Only one puppy took it hard. I'm assuming she got bit first, and or came back for more. She took it pretty hard. When more than one dogs gets bit it's a calculated risk as what to do. There is a good chance that one dog more than the others have a dangerous amount of venom. The problem is, which one? Really don't know for a few hours. Taking four or more dogs to the vet for treatment could coat of fortune, at 400 to 600 dollars a vial. If however I knew the dog would die without a vet visit, then I would take the dog to the vet and damm the cost.
So what do we do? We try and identify why the dog has a swollen head. I once saw a dog about a year old get stung on the foot by a honey bee. They were at the water and the bees where everywhere along the shore. I saw the dog jump back and figured it was stung. When I got all the dogs home I noticed this dog had huge swollen head. I checked the feet and found the bees stinger still there. I took out the stinger.
Many times I've found dogs both young and old with swollen heads with no apparent fang marks, or any other marks for that matter. Why I never knew. A bee, scorpion, toad, wasp, something they ate? Who knows? We are in Arizona where everything bites, pokes, or stings, and is most likely poisonous.
The treatment is pretty much the same. Start of with Benadryl, or the active ingredient diphenhydramine. 13 teaspoons or so of child's liquid or 1 tablet for every 25 pounds, 3 times a day. Benadryl helps calm, reduce or keep from swelling, and keeps air ways open. I've been told by many Az. dog owners that they have given, or done nothing more then give Benadryl when their dog was bitten by a rattlesnake. I don't remember ever hearing someone's dog die of a rattlesnake down here.
Vets almost always give an antibiotic for secondary infections. Like the bite site. I don't think that there is much of a chance for a secondary infection, but antibiotics are easy to give. Our go to antibiotics are Penicillin and Tylon 50. A half to one cc of either or both can be given. We typically don't use antibiotics until after the second day.
We have had a couple cases that were pretty bad. Absolutely paralyzed, no use of any body movements, no ability to move what so ever. No control of their bowels, and the inability to eat or drink. You would think that would mean organ damage and death, but that does not seem to be the case.
One top vet, and someone who I value their opinion said when this happens you must get the dog into some water and get the dog moving to expel the toxin from the body and joints. So that is what we try and do.
Believe me it's not easy. We need the dog to move around, eat and drink, and get well. We can use vitamins and electrolytes, B vitamins in liquid or injectable, yogurt, egg yolk, can dog food, Colloidal Silver, Chlorella, Prednisone, Ivs, Epsom salts, water exercise, and maybe as important is a lot of love, and kind care. Petting, keeping calm and comfortable, and loving talking too.
Here is what Sara Scott a friend who was in charge at a vet's office said: “Anti venom is not always helpful. Most vets don't keep enough on hand for it to be a viable treatment option. Anti venom is about $250 a vial and the recommended dosage is to keep giving it until it is effective so you could be in it for anywhere from 2 to 10 vials but you could go through 10 dosages and it not work. Supportive care is what has worked for years before anti venom for dogs came available”.
You have now seen two areas we deal with, being a breeder is not an easy task.
We have progressed in what and how we do things at the kennel over the years with practical experience. Often we have to take a educated and calculated risk. We have had both good and very bad experiences with veterinarians. There is however little we do in the veterinarian department where we have not only hands on experience with the vet, but much consolation. Add to the the vast amount of information on the web, then add the many groups and individual people who have had practical experience in what ever you are dealing with.
Parvo and Snake bites are 2 such areas. At one point many years ago we were getting Parvo in our litters. I decided if I could not get it under control then I would no longer breed dogs. The anguish of caring for and then losing a puppy to Parvo was just two much. So I studied every single thing I could find on the subject, and talked to every vet who would listen.
At one point I thought the shot was giving the pups Parvo, in part because I would give a shot and 7 or so days later the pups would come down with Parvo. I believe in the end it was the Parvo vaccine that played a big part, as well as our protocol. We were using Fort Dodge vaccine and waiting until eight weeks old to give the vaccine. Pups were getting Parvo before eight weeks and often after a Parvo shot.
We switched to Vanguard Plus 5 by Zoetis. We order it in 2 to 3 hundred dollar orders to save money on shipping. Next day shipping, packed in extra ice. We give the shots at 5 or 6 weeks, and then again at 7 or 8 weeks, then 3 weeks later for the 3rd shot. After we give the first shot we wait 2 weeks and give the 2nd, and then we wait 3 weeks before the 3rd shot. I take all the shots I'm going to use on the litter and place in ice water before going to give the shots. I want the shots to be good, and heat can kill the vaccine.
Vanguard Plus 5 is highly immunogenic and capable of stimulating active immunity in the presence of maternal antibodies. And that my friend is why we use it. Parvo can not get to the puppy because of the mother's maternal antibodies. But the vaccine can overcome the mother's antibodies. We do two weeks apart for the first 2 shots because I want a shorter window for Parvo. Also I want 2 shots before the puppy goes home with the new owner. I can't depend on the owner being responsible to get the vaccines. There is probably a 100 percent change that when the puppies leaves our place that they are protected from Parvo. The shots after the 1st shots are not boosters, they are insurance against the first shoot not working. In effect you are trying to beat the Parvo virus getting to the pup. Will it be your vaccine, or the Parvo virus that gets to the puppy first? The first one there wins. I want that win to go to the puppy.
Four years and none, not one of our puppies, either here or leaving here have come up with Parvo. So you can see there is little chance that anyone is going to get me to do our Parvo prevention any other way.
Rattlesnake bites: I'm not unfamiliar with rattlesnake bites and German Shorthairs. Close to 45 years ago Jack the solid liver Shorthair of my younth was killed by a rattlesnake. Jack hated rattlesnakes and would do battle with them. And when a dog does battle with a rattlesnake the dog gets a lot of venom. It's life or death for the snake and the snake is going to give the dog all the venom the snake has.
Jack would do battle with the snake, and Jack would go see the horse vet Doctor Mason, Doc would give anti venom and send Jack home. But old Doc Mason, a wise old doctor he was, warned that someday Jack would meet a big one, a big old rattlesnake and the bite would kill Jack. One day there were rattlesnake parts on the porch, and Jack was never found. Went down to the nearby creek and died a lonely death. And that is how the best hunting dog I as well as many others had ever seen met his maker.
I'm not a fan of rattlesnakes, and since we moved to the great snake state of Arizona we are at approx. 25 puppies to grown dogs bitten. One dog who was bitten as a pup lost his eye. The biggest vet bill was 2 grand. Many have been bitten while hunting. A couple were bitten in a California camp. Even saw many in Montana, I did not think rattlesnakes would be there. Hell rattlesnakes and cactus in Montana, might as well been in Az.
The Ca. bite got me thinking. I called the vet thinking to take the dog in for anti venom. The vet said bring him in. I asked how much anti venom was costing. Around 400 to 600, and from one to three veils needed. The vet said they did not have any or use anti venom. They also did not feel it necessary to refer us to a vet that did. The truth was that the vet could do nothing we ourselves could not do. The dog was fine the next day. A very small rattlesnake.
I'm of the firm belief that very small rattlesnakes are of little concern to a large dog. There simply is not enough venom. Also that if more than one dog is bit, than the first dog get's more venom. Also that if the dog does not grab the snake then the snake acting in a defensive manner does not release a lot of venom. Also a bite on the nose allows the head to swell causing less damage. A neck, chest, or leg bite is more dangerous.
So with twenty five dogs bitten, you would think that at least one dog or puppy would die. That's not been the case. I watched Tonya one time while hunting get bit twice by a small sidewinder. Both sets of fang marks could be seen. Her face did swell but there was little effect. Even dogs who are smart and have been trained to avoid rattlesnakes get bit every now and then. Birds and wildlife tend to be under brush, behind logs and in the grass where rattlesnakes are also found. Jack once came back with a nice large set of fang marks on his nose. His face swelled up, but he was hunting the next day. Believe me when your best dog who you love more than most of your friends gets bitten and you don't take him to the vet, you have a lot of faith that anti venom is not needed.
I have heard of dogs bitten that have had anti venom who have still died. I would not think that would be possible. There must have been a very large snake and maybe some battling going on.
We once had 5 puppies that were all about 8 weeks old bitten by one rattlesnake that got into the puppy yard. Only one puppy took it hard. I'm assuming she got bit first, and or came back for more. She took it pretty hard. When more than one dogs gets bit it's a calculated risk as what to do. There is a good chance that one dog more than the others have a dangerous amount of venom. The problem is, which one? Really don't know for a few hours. Taking four or more dogs to the vet for treatment could coat of fortune, at 400 to 600 dollars a vial. If however I knew the dog would die without a vet visit, then I would take the dog to the vet and damm the cost.
So what do we do? We try and identify why the dog has a swollen head. I once saw a dog about a year old get stung on the foot by a honey bee. They were at the water and the bees where everywhere along the shore. I saw the dog jump back and figured it was stung. When I got all the dogs home I noticed this dog had huge swollen head. I checked the feet and found the bees stinger still there. I took out the stinger.
Many times I've found dogs both young and old with swollen heads with no apparent fang marks, or any other marks for that matter. Why I never knew. A bee, scorpion, toad, wasp, something they ate? Who knows? We are in Arizona where everything bites, pokes, or stings, and is most likely poisonous.
The treatment is pretty much the same. Start of with Benadryl, or the active ingredient diphenhydramine. 13 teaspoons or so of child's liquid or 1 tablet for every 25 pounds, 3 times a day. Benadryl helps calm, reduce or keep from swelling, and keeps air ways open. I've been told by many Az. dog owners that they have given, or done nothing more then give Benadryl when their dog was bitten by a rattlesnake. I don't remember ever hearing someone's dog die of a rattlesnake down here.
Vets almost always give an antibiotic for secondary infections. Like the bite site. I don't think that there is much of a chance for a secondary infection, but antibiotics are easy to give. Our go to antibiotics are Penicillin and Tylon 50. A half to one cc of either or both can be given. We typically don't use antibiotics until after the second day.
We have had a couple cases that were pretty bad. Absolutely paralyzed, no use of any body movements, no ability to move what so ever. No control of their bowels, and the inability to eat or drink. You would think that would mean organ damage and death, but that does not seem to be the case.
One top vet, and someone who I value their opinion said when this happens you must get the dog into some water and get the dog moving to expel the toxin from the body and joints. So that is what we try and do.
Believe me it's not easy. We need the dog to move around, eat and drink, and get well. We can use vitamins and electrolytes, B vitamins in liquid or injectable, yogurt, egg yolk, can dog food, Colloidal Silver, Chlorella, Prednisone, Ivs, Epsom salts, water exercise, and maybe as important is a lot of love, and kind care. Petting, keeping calm and comfortable, and loving talking too.
Here is what Sara Scott a friend who was in charge at a vet's office said: “Anti venom is not always helpful. Most vets don't keep enough on hand for it to be a viable treatment option. Anti venom is about $250 a vial and the recommended dosage is to keep giving it until it is effective so you could be in it for anywhere from 2 to 10 vials but you could go through 10 dosages and it not work. Supportive care is what has worked for years before anti venom for dogs came available”.
You have now seen two areas we deal with, being a breeder is not an easy task.